Ok, first..........Read The Diary!
The rules are about to change and a big chunk of your previously stored talking points are about to get thrown out! I suggest you do some quick limbering up before for you stretch for that NEXT Talking Point to oppose Impeaching our Criminal- in -Chief and his merry band of protofascicts!
Right now and forever after you can stop telling me one thing. You can stop with the whole "we don't have the votes" um, stuff....before you post it.
Because....
I don't CARE if we have the votes anymore.
Impeachment proceedings have consequences that normal hearings don't. It is time to invoke those consequences.
The Congressional Democrats are in a tough strategic situation. I feel for them, I really do. But criticizing them is NOT hating on them, pressuring them is NOT disrespecting them and Yelling Loudly IS OUR JOB AS CITIZENS, the part WE play in the system. Our job is NOT to worship the Dems and obey them. It is to tell them what we want and work to get them to do it....it is called Representative Democracy.....and it only works when the citizens pressure their representatives to do what they want. If WE don't pressure them, the only pressure they get is from the lobbyists and consultants, the very people that got us into this mess. So you can can your Dem Hater/Be Nice .....um, stuff, too.
Reality Based, right? So what is the reality we face? What are the results of the actions of the 110th?
The Dems can't get us out of Iraq.
The Dems can't even pass legislation to prevent us from attacking Iran.
The Dems can't get past the stonewall the WH has erected, there areNO consequences(as of yet) for stonewalling or even outright lying to Congress.
The Dems can't pass ANY meaningful legislation that won't get filibustered or vetoed.
The ONLY meaningful legislation the Dems have passed was tied to The Capitulation Bill...so if they want to pass even just Minimum Wage, they have to let the President kill more Iraqis and more of our troops to do it.
The Dems approval rating is now BELOW Bush. Why? Because they didn't DO anything on Iraq when they had the chance. And it sure doesn't look like they are doing anything else.....anything that Bush doesn't want, anyway. The Public....the voters want to see accomplishments.....or at least action.
There is a YEAR AND A HALF LEFT of this ....um, stuff.
Face it folks, the 110th Congress Democrats, through no fault of their own, mostly, cannot do Jack....um, Stuff...for the next year and a half. And when their term is over the voters will ask, the Republicans will ask, and the media will ask......what have you done?
And they will have no answer.
I have been saying this since the 06 election in response to Talking Point Number Three of the Anti-Impeach crowd........... What? You don't know what Talking Point Number Three is?
Then let us review....and once again shoot down The Four Talking Points of Anti-Impeachment!!!
The Four Talking Points of Anti-impeachment.
Talking Point Number Four: Revenge for Clinton.
Talking Point Number Three: Impeachment will prevent Congress from focusing on other things....like passing legislation.
Talking Point Number Two: It will hurt the Dems electoral prospects in 08.
Talking Point Number One: We don't have the votes.
Number Four: Revenge. The silliest, pardon my sarcasm here.
Um, NO! Let's see, here.... for starting an illegal war and lying us into it, for puling out of Afghanistan and not capturing Bin Laden, for torture, for spying on American citizens, for subverting the DOJ, for negligent homicide in Katrina.....etc. etc. etc.
Clinton's purely political Bull um, stuff impeachment is about a #172 on that list. George Bush has committed REAL CRIMES. We don't need petty motives to impeach him, their are plenty of good healthy motives.
And the voters KNOW this is not politically motivated, also.
Number Three: Impeachment will prevent Congress from focusing on other things....like passing legislation.
Really, how is that working out? What have the Dems been able to get past a filibuster? What can they get past a veto?
I challenge anyone to tell me what the Dems will be able to do THAT BUSH OPPOSES legislatively for the next YEAR AND A HALF.
Again, when the elections roll around what accomplishments will the Dems have to point to to impress the voters? The Dems were elected to DO something. Some say end the war, some say corruption. Now the Dems have even backed off of ethics reform. It sucks and it is depressing and it is very easy to slip into denial. But just the other day, someone in Rusty's diaryrepeated the frame. "We don't have time to impeach we have to focus on real accomplishments." Great, name one.
Impeachment IS virtually the ONLY thing the Dems have the power to do.
Number Two: It will hurt the Dems electoral prospects in 08.
You can read a discussion of the moral side of the issue of not prosecuting known criminals here, for detail. But I would THINK this part would be obvious, they have broken the law, they should be prosecuted....whether or NOT it hurts the Dems chances in 08. Anything else is political opportunism and moral relativism at its lowest and most craven.
Next, this talking point is based on the "damage" done to the GOP after the Clinton Impeachment. These Talking Pointers speak of the horrible backlash the GP had to endure after foisting a sham purely partisan impeachment that fooled virtually NO thinking people. Comparing that railroading witch hunt to impeach George "the Torturer" Bush is ridiculous on the face of it. Yet it is done routinely.
Clinton was impeached by the House of Representatives on December 19, 1998, and acquitted by the Senate on February 12, 1999. The next election was of course, in 2000
So let's look at how many seats in the House the Repubs lost: 2
So let's look at how many seats in the Senate the Repubs lost: 4
And who is to say how many of that ridiculously small number were due PURELY to impeachment.
(HT to cc)
Yes, these poor backlashed and damaged Republicants gained control of the White House and retained control of the House, and only lost control of the Senate because of the Jeffers defection.
After the CLINTON Impeachment. THAT is the Horrible Damage that these folks fear. That the public will punish them for prosecuting a President they hate.....after they BARELY punished the Repubs for a farcical impeachment of a President they liked. These folks say it might hurt our chance at the WH....BUT, if we don't Impeach and don't defund the Occupation of Iraq, the war will still be going strong and the Republican candidate will have that hung around their neck JUST AS we are fielding one of a great cast of potential nominees...and you expect me to be concerned that Impeaching one of the most unpopular Presidents ever while his war is still going on is going to HURT Dem chances?
ESPECIALLY when the alternative is that the Dems didn't accomplish ANYTHING in the 110th?
Give me a break.
It is morally wrong not to punish lawbreakers, and the imagined damage is just that....imagined.
OTOH, since impeachment IS virtually the ONLY thing the Dems have the power to do....they can point to at least an ATTEMPT to punish and remove a universally loathed President and his corrupt administration from power.
Number One: We don't have the votes. After writing a couple or three diaries about this Talking Point....We Don't Have The Votes To Impeach...well, DUH!, being the latest one, and you are welcome to read it but....
That no longer applies. I don't care if we have the votes to convict or not anymore. So SCREW having the votes, you can toss that Talking Point out.
.
It is time to impeach no matter what the outcome may be.
The Republicans are stonewalling using executive privilege as an excuse. They know the current investigations have no teeth. I believe Condi Rice is ignoring a subpoena right now, as a matter of fact. Abu Gonzales is Stonewalling. Cheney has been Stonewalling on the Energy Meetings for years. It goes on and on.....and WILL go on until The Democrats stop them from Stonewalling.
IMPEACHMENT IS THE HAMMER TO KNOCK THE STONEWALL DOWN.
Under Impeachment proceedings, executive privilege is not allowed, I believe that was decided on Nixon.
UPDATE!
After discussions in the comments regarding whether Executive Privilege applies...The following language (with slight modification...see the link as well) has been agreed upon.
You can either honor the subpoena, or we'll impeach you, and then we'll subpoena you and your documents again, and at that point you won't have any executive privilege to hid behind, because you won't be an executive anything any more. And there will be actual sentencing then, because you'll actually be on trial.
Link
The thread starts here
A subpoena under Impeachment proceedings carries more weight. Both with the Voters....and with the media.
The Media will actually COVER the story.....Impeachment is sexy. Investigations are already boring. If the media have a sexy Impeachment to sink their teeth into, they might even investigate and report stuff!!!
It is time to impeach Abu Gonzales, to start.
Then move on to Cheney.
By that time Bush MAY have resigned....due to the evidenced obtained in the previous two investigations. If not....on to Bush.
Hell, the Far Right is calling for impeachment now over immigration! His Base is Bailing! This NOT the time to play defense and be cautious and complacent. It is the time to attack.
If you wish to argue these points...here is a summary of my position.
The vast majority of American Voters KNOW this is not politically motivated.
There is a small amount of accomplishments the Dems can actually achieve anyway, therefore Impeachment will NOT affect the Dems limited effectiveness. Or take up precious time they need to do.....what?
AND impeachment will be perceived as a STRONG, DECISIVE MOVE by the voters.....which is exactly what they....and we...wish to see from the Dems before handing them the reins completely.
Impeachment will HELP kill the perception that the Dems are to weak to 'defend the country.'
There will NOT be a backlash for a non-political fact based investigation. (of course the rabid 28% will foam at the mouth, but that is a permanent state, it's time to judiciously ignore them while responding to their smears effectively) ANY backlash will be insignificant compared to what is at stake. See the Clinton backlash numbers above.
I also argue that with the war still on, and the additional corruption being exposed through investigations...AND the fact that the GOP hates their candidates, any backlash in 2008 will be further diminished in significance. The Repubs are toast...UNLESS we do nothing, which is what we are perceived to be doing...and why the poll numbers are down.
And finally... pragmatically for investigative purposes, politically, to be perceived as effective, and morally and legally to restore and enforce the rule of law, Impeachment is the right thing to do....whether we have the votes to convict or not.
Obviously however, I still feel that once the EFFECTIVE investigations are completed, there WILL be enough (R) Senators who will vote to disassociate with Bush to save their own ass.
Bonus Point! Impeachment will not directly help re Iraq.....but it WILL help in preventing any movement against Iran. It is much harder to start wars when you are being impeached!